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ptsd

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has kind of seems to me post-traumatic

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stress disorder has seemed to

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brought trauma to the forefront of

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something that

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people are thinking about it we hear

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about our soldiers coming back and so

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forth

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with this trauma and the various

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treatments for this trauma

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but it turns out that trauma

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is much much much larger issue for our

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society

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than just these soldiers coming back

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with ptsd

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yeah it's all a very political issue but

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you know i was

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part of the sort of the creation of the

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diagnosis and

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interestingly before we had this

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diagnosis nobody

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talked about child abuse nobody talked

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about domestic violence

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nobody talked about the hell that people

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put each other through

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it's really astonishing how it was

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completely off the map

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and so when we first defined ptsd

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uh we called it an extraordinary event

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outside the realm of ordinary human

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experience

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and then it turned out that about more

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than 70 percent of people in the

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have traumatic experiences in their

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lives somehow we had been living in la

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la land all that time

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um and because we are the most

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warlike country since genghis

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we have large number of soldiers who we

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send

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all around the globe to bring our

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wonderful system around the globe

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and because of that a lot of soldiers

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come back

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but that's where the money goes but in

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fact

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for every soldier that gets hurt in the

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war there's at least

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30 kids who get hurt at home so trauma

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is much more common

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at home than abroad and for women the

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greatest source of trauma

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is their intimate partners and for kids

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the greatest source of intima of trauma

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is our own parents oftentimes their

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mothers

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yeah i was thinking about the fact that

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if a rugged

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soldier you know who signs up for

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war can suffer from trauma

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then i imagine that a child a

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one-year-old two-year-old three-year-old

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child

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must be much more susceptible to trauma

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than the rugged uh soldier

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well this is a nice image of the rugged

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soldier of course

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people who join the military are

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generally

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not the most promising members of

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society they oftentimes

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escape violence

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employment difficulties

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poverty in their own backgrounds and in

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fact

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people who enlist in the army have a

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much higher rate of

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early childhood trauma than the general

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population so i love your

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your depiction of valid soldiers but

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that's not quite how it works either

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and yeah that's that's a good that's a

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that's a good correction and

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actually let me let me ask it in a in a

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different way the difference but i can

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certainly answer your question also oh

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sorry

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does it see the issue the fact that we

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have a ptsd diagnosis

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is sort of gross over simplification

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it's about

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an event but we have really become much

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more sophisticated about it

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in that we know that for children having

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a predictable

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loving reflective

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and non-scary environment is critical

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and so probably the greatest source of

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pathology in our society probably

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at the end more expensive than cancer or

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heart disease

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is children getting exposed to abuse and

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neglect

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and to domestic violence which has

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far-ranging

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and pervasive effects on their brains

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their

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stress hormone systems etc etc

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and the centers for disease control

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calculate

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uh that it's more expensive than these

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leading causes of death and uh that in

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fact

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it has very pervasive effects on

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people's medical states

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on their mental states on their physical

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states their employment

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capacities their learning capacities etc

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etc

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yeah thanks so yeah i was going to

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restate the question to just talk about

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the developed adult brain versus the

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developing

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child brain right does it take a rocket

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scientist to to

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guess i'll guess and hopefully confirm

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right that

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a a child's brain is much more

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susceptible

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to being damaged by trauma and the

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amount

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of quote unquote trauma does not need to

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be near as much

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[Music]

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you're getting a call oh there you go no

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well see a child's brain

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is not formed so a child's brain forms

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in the context of

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the system that it lives in and

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if a child is being terrified by its own

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caregivers

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that child develops a brain that is set

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that is

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geared towards dealing with terror and

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fear

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and trying to do as well as it can

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and so the child develops a brain that

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becomes very alert for danger

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that is ready to fight that's ready to

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see

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problems everywhere it's not a brain

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that likes to play

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and to just basically explore the world

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so if you live in endangered

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surroundings you develop

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by a larger brain that has a hard time

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focusing concentrating and that

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oftentimes gets

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misdiagnosed as attention deficit

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disorder

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meaning that these kids have developed a

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mind and the brain

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that is pretty good in surviving extreme

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danger and abandonment but is not very

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good in becoming a member of a

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civilized society so

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compare what it does to the brain for

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instance to be left alone

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for 10 days and and and not knowing

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where you are you're you're a

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two-year-old you're a six-year-old

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you're a 12-year-old you're a

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22-year-old you're a 32-year-old

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i would imagine that the impact of that

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varies

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dramatically based on age

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that's true to a large degree but being

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left alone

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is very hard for people of any ages said

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that

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wired for

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getting along with each other talking to

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each other preparing meals together

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making uh zoom calls with people we are

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a connected species and so for people to

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be disconnected

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since time immemorial people have noted

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if you really

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want to punish somebody you put them in

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solitary confinement

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and i think that people don't talk

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nearly enough about the extreme cruelty

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of solitary confinement that is widely

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practiced in their jails

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of course if you leave a child all by

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itself that child is a developing brain

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and that child doesn't develop the

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neuronal systems

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that you need in order to get along with

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other people

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i said the brain is a use dependent

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organ

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the brain gets formed according to the

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experiences that you have

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the brain is a cultural organ that gets

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shaped by whatever is going on around

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you particularly during the first

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six to eight years of life and

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that's the brain you get you get the

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brain that's really

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prepared to deal with danger to shut

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down and

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disconnect basically we talk so much

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about

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treatment of these things once the

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person is an adult and now they're

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suffering as a result of their childhood

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trauma

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or neglect but it's just as important it

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seems to me

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to be talking to parents and for parents

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to be understanding as parents

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of young children to understand

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that developing brain and how easily

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it's impacted

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and how easily it could be subjected to

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something that would

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is essentially traumatic for a young

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child

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that's going to ultimately have

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long-term effects

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yes parents it's very to a large degree

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a political issue of course

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in what sort of social systems you have

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in place for certain systems

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you have in place that help parents to

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raise their children

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in every civilized country in the world

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except for the us

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parents get between half a year

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and a year of paid leave to take care of

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the kids

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that pays off enormously of course in

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the netherlands where i grew up

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the incarceration rate currently is 68

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per 100 thousand people

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in the us it's over 900

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per hundred thousand people so that's a

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factor of a gigantic factor

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so if you don't have a systems in place

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that help

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parents who often themselves have been

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traumatized

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to securely raise their children the

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likelihood that this will go on from

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generation to generation is very great

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and these are larger political issues

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that are not

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unknown about people for example in the

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year 2000 a guy by name

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john heckman won the nobel prize

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for showing that for every dollar that a

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society invests

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in helping young mothers raise their

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children

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in the long range society harvest seven

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dollars

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in benefits and so if you don't have

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these

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early caregiving systems you end up like

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we do with

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2.3 million people in jail

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and over 500 k thousand kids in foster

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care

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while in countries where people invest

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in kids from very early on

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of course the function much better

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what about the old-fashioned form of

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caregiving

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which is that the mother is home with

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the child

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full-time and the father is out making

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the money to bring home to

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raise the family with well i'm not sure

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if

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better adjusted people

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so it's better is there a comparison

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romantic about but

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yeah you know um if your mom

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uh is drunk at home or your mom

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is an out of control uh angry person

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staying home with mom may not be the

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greatest thing either as maybe some kids

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are experiencing these days

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being locked up with the coronavirus

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well have there been studies about

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a mother at home raising the child

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versus

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mom and dad go work and they drop the

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kid off at daycare

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not as far as i know there's some

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studies on daycare

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some people really thought that daycare

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would be very disastrous

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it has not turned out to be that way and

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certainly

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in cultures where you have cleared

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sexual divisions like india and pakistan

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and other places around the world the

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incidence of

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abuse and domestic violence is not lower

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than in this country

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so if you were writing a guide to

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parents

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right now based you know i know there's

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all kinds of political issues and

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societal issues this and that but

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you you're telling your son and and your

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your daughter-in-law

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based on all the research i've done and

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the studying i've done over my career of

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30 plus years whatever

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it's been you're extremely accomplished

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in your field of

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trauma what would you be advising them

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uh regarding raising their child

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uh number one is family meals

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that a very simple thing has been shown

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to be an extraordinarily good predictor

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of long-term family functioning

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just having meals together for breakfast

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and dinner

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cooking together sitting there together

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and debriefing each other

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is a very powerful factor uh

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you need to be parents that means you

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need to be at home you need to work with

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your kids

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plays